Freedom of Speech and Democracy (rant thread)

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sixtem
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Post by sixtem » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:03 pm

JAMZ:You just proved my point. correct me if im wrong, but a threat is still speech, but that type of speech is somthing you can get arrested for, so that means there isnt freedom of speech or if there waws i good threat who ever and whatever i wanted and i will be fine.END

I can't believe you just said that. Here's an example so you understand:

"I think that airport should be bombed!" This is freedom of speech. Yes, a very shaky and risky thing to say (especially with this political climate and the people that are now in charge) but you're free to say it nonetheless.

"I'm have a bomb!" YOU JUST FUCKING SAID YOU HAVE A BOMB. YOU JUST CONFESSED TO HAVING A BOMB. Now if the cops (regardless what country or what rulers there are) just ignore that, people could die! THEY JUST SAID THEY HAD A BOMB. That's a confession of it! That's a threat!

When you take every word in a sentence, ie. freedom of speech, and take it absolutely literally even though it's obvious that's not the point.

Freedom of speech is the freedom to voice an opinion, no matter how radical it may be. It is NOT the freedom to say ANYTHING you want and get away with it.

Because if a person said "I'm gonna kill you tomorrow" and we had your way of interpretation of freedom of speech, then no legal opposition would be placed and the victim could be killed!

I can't fucking believe I just had to explain that to you.

EDIT
Oh yeah, do you even know the purpose of the cartoons? To voice the very question we're arguing now. How far can freedom of speech go. Probably not the best thing to take a jab at, but nonetheless it's their right.

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Az
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Post by Az » Sat Feb 04, 2006 12:59 pm

Wow. You really ARE an idiot. I'm beginning to doubt your ability to read.

Firstly; I wasn't trying to preach to you. I was telling you that YOU have NO right to tell me "hey that's the world, deal with it", because I very much KNOW how the world works. So just shut the fuck up, you spoiled fucking brat.

Second: About the " do you even know the purpose of the cartoons? " thing.
Yes, I do.
I've said this a million fucking times already.

It was a competition to insult the Muslim Prophet Mohammed.
A competition. To insult. The muslim Prophet. Mohammed.

And nothing else, believe me, you dunno the Danes like I do, as they practically live in my backyard

Do you understand now or do I need to fucking draw it up for you?

One more thing; drawing those pictures in times like these is like dressing in meat and going in to a hungry lions cage. Don't you understand the political importance? By doing this they endager Scandinavia. And all of the other countries who published the pictures.
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Jamz
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Post by Jamz » Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:31 pm

sixtem wrote:
Freedom of speech is the freedom to voice an opinion, no matter how radical it may be. It is NOT the freedom to say ANYTHING you want and get away with it.

Because if a person said "I'm gonna kill you tomorrow" and we had your way of interpretation of freedom of speech, then no legal opposition would be placed and the victim could be killed!
Why would it be called Freedom of Speech if you can't say anything you want? It sould be called Freedom to state your opinion, but as its not so i guess its ment to mean freedom of speech. which oviously means you sould be able to say what you want.

Do you even know what i'm trying to prove to you? THERE IS NO FREEDOM OF SPEECH! i know there isnt, and if there was complete freedom of speech alot of people would die. as what you said before. if some one shouts they have a bomb (which is legal through freedom of speech) they are putting the life of people on the line. so they sould be stoped in what way is the best course of action.
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Post by sixtem » Sat Feb 04, 2006 10:29 pm

Az wrote:So just shut the fuck up, you spoiled fucking brat.
You just did what I said you were doing! You just fucking did it.

"I was telling you that YOU have NO right to tell me "hey that's the world, deal with it", because I very much KNOW how the world works."

Yes I fucking do. Because apparently you don't understand how.
This is all assinine, because both the Quran and the Bible both have horrible paragraphs in them speaking about murder and killing infidels! Or do you not understand what a Jihad is? A HOLY WAR. In fact, Muslim priests (not Bin Laden, other people) put out a fatwah to kill Any American anywhere, for no reason. And this was before 9/11! This was in 1998!

"you dunno the Danes like I do, as they practically live in my backyard"
Did you just fucking generalize an entire country?

look here for pic
This thing got people killed. And a bunch of other insane shit. Now, y'know what that did? When all the Muslims went out in a big outcry against this cartoon, it just proved its point. Why can't ALL OF YOU resist your anger? Fucking deal with it? And Az, you didn't even respond to what I said about your ignorance fueling the fire. The reaction to this cartoon is just supporting a stereotype of Muslims.

Jamz Well, laws can be interpreted. You interpret Freedom of Speech in a very literal way. To you it's ANYTHING you say. The line that's drawn is when you confess to a crime or threaten someone. That's not stating your opinion or view, which Freedom of Speech is, but that's actually committing a crime. I will agree with you on the statement that "there is no freedom of speech!" but in a different context. There's always gonna be censorship, so there will never be 100% freedom of speech. I mean, look at what Bush did to Cindy Sheehan and many liberal reporters!

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Post by Az » Sat Feb 04, 2006 11:32 pm

Dude, how the hell can you, all sheltered in your little fucking bubble of happiness tell ANYONE about how the world works? Again, SHUT THE FUCK UP. You don't even know SHIT about the political situation in this, and that's just the surface of it.

The Dane thing isn't generalizing, I didn't say "you dunno all Danes". However, the majority of Danes (not all, again, in case youre too dense) have a very aggressive attitude against foreigners, especially middle eastern ones, namely arabs -> muslims.

Yes, that picture got people killed. What would be the normal solution to that? Never to have published it, especially not in times like these. Get it? It's just fueling the hatred. You gotta have respect and you gotta be careful, not like those racist whores who seem like they WANT war.

And it's all in the way your interpret both Holy Books; if you indeed are a pimple-faced 12-year old boy like yourself, there's a chance you'll get it horribly, horribly wrong.
Sadly enough, most terrorists are pimple-faced 12-year old boys who got it all wrong.

Furthermore, I'm beginning to lose interest in your comments. You hold no points, bro. You keep contradicting yourself, like about the "this pic got people killed".
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Post by sixtem » Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:16 am

That's very mature, trying to insult me because I don't agree with you. I never said it was right what they did, I said that they could if they wanted to. I understand people asking to remove it, or just boycotting the newspapers that put that in them, but this other stuff is way too far.

And the "it's in the way you interpret it" thing is only partly right. Most of the stuff that people cite from the Quran/Bible is all interpretation. But, there are some that aren't. And when it comes to interpretation, how do you know you're interpreting it correctly? Honestly, you need to question these things.

How did I contradict myself? I was rather clear. It's okay to disagree with their point, I myself do, but they shouldn't me censored for it. Sure, it's not right what they're saying, but nobody should have their rights taken away. And people did die over that picture. Several white hostages were taken and they've executed a few people.

Actually, I think TRS said it the best.

And YOU hold no points. The only thing supporting your argument is that it's offensive. This wouldn't be bad at all if the Muslims didn't retaliate like this. So before you start critisizing the Danes for posting this, you should stop your "people" from committing these crimes. Two wrongs don't make a right.

EDIT
You wouldn't happen to be fake, would you? Actually, you may be as far as communist. You hold many Marxist-Leninist beliefs.
EDIT 2
"Dude, how the hell can you, all sheltered in your little fucking bubble of happiness tell ANYONE about how the world works? Again, SHUT THE FUCK UP."
Again, please don't be so ignorant. Just because I grew up in America doesn't mean I don't know how the world works. It only took 1 bad hand for me to realize that I should be a realist. I guess it took you more.

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Freedom of Speech and Democracy (rant thread)

Post by Sarenth » Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:30 am

Quote:

Wow. You really ARE an idiot. I'm beginning to doubt your ability to read.

Firstly; I wasn't trying to preach to you. I was telling you that YOU have NO right to tell me "hey that's the world, deal with it", because I very much KNOW how the world works. So just shut the fuck up, you spoiled fucking brat.


Endquote.

Right. Well if we take your statement and flip it around, HEY, you don't have any right to tell anyone to "shut the fuck up".

Quote:

Second: About the " do you even know the purpose of the cartoons? " thing.
Yes, I do.
I've said this a million fucking times already.

It was a competition to insult the Muslim Prophet Mohammed.
A competition. To insult. The muslim Prophet. Mohammed.
And nothing else, believe me, you dunno the Danes like I do, as they practically live in my backyard


Enquote.

I make no attempt to imagine what it is like to have the Danes, as you put it, "living in my backyard." However, your statement that it was a concentrated effort to insult the Prophet Mohammed, is questionable. Did you pen that comic? Did you pen any comic that has contained Mohammed? No? I didn't think so, because, as I remember it, Muslims are prohibited from depicting Mohammed. In much the same way, Christians are restricted from "making any graven image" unto Yahweh. Using your statement earlier in the posts amounting to "you don't know what its like to be Muslim" is correct in my case; however, you do not know what it is like to be a comic artist with a massive deadline and a highly controversial subject matter on the end of your pen, either.


Quote:
Do you understand now or do I need to fucking draw it up for you? Endquote.

Well, this is mangaworkshop, maybe you should to illustrate your points better, as they aren't making much of an impact through type.

Quote:
One more thing; drawing those pictures in times like these is like dressing in meat and going in to a hungry lions cage. Don't you understand the political importance? By doing this they endager Scandinavia. And all of the other countries who published the pictures.
Endquote.

As I remember it, letting tyrants and fear rule is what made the Crusades and Inquisition possible. Tyranny takes many forms, among them is silencing voices that are dissenting. Desecrating a Christian Cross in the time of the Inquisition used to get you tortured in a wide array of ways, and either hung (usually) or burnt (in France). Burning an American flag used to get you killed in America a few decades ago (usually by a consenting mob). Speaking out against the Chinese government in 1989 got a large number of student killed (the figures estimate between 400-7,000 depending on whom you ask).
Simply put: Allowed Suppression allows Tyranny. Tyranny allows Control. Control allows Fear. Fear allows Suspicion. Suspicion allows Hysteria. Hysteria allows Massacre. Massacre allows silence.

Drawn out in logic:
When you allow someone to supress you, supress your voice, you let them, whoever they be, control you. When they control you, you fear, or are afraid of stepping outside the boundaries they lay for you. When you are afraid of going outside the boundaries set for you ands set them for others (your friends, children, etc.) they watch you and you, them. You become suspicious if they show the slightest deviation from the control. Then you (however many of you there are) begin pointing fingers at one another, and become hysterical with fear. Now you all are outside the boundaries of control and whomever you have put yourself under wipes you out in a massacre and/or stamps you and the hysterical ones down into silence.

If we follow this logic, would not abiding by the rules set forth by your religion be misused in this manner? Of course. This is true of any religion. Christianity has already well-worn this road, as well as Judaism and Islam. The three major religions look fantastic on paper, and are usually lived well and peaceful throughout their many millions of followers. However, it IS the extremists we should worry for! Who but extremists led the Crusades and Inquisition? And the extremists had the power in Europe then! Who but extremists formed the teams that would turn planes into missiles? In that moment, they had power to rain down untold numbers of violence, and only brought down a few buildings and partially damaged a military installation. Imagine what would have happened if the Capitol Building, White House and other such places had been hit!

No we should not police our religions! To do such would violate the principal associated with (at least according to my understanding of it) freely choosing to follow God (whomever that may be for you). However, to silence a person because *gasp* they insulted your God may seem...well a little foolish. How many people insult Jesus by "taking his name in vain", an affront to one of the Ten Commandments? Not seeing anyone being shushed or taking a bullet. However, not Jesus, nor Mohammed, nor any prophet, deity, etc. should have to take insults, but take them they will because God gave Man free choice.

I also did not seeing Christian groups up in arms and protesting in the streets over depictions of Jesus in newspaper comics. I mean, the guy's featured often enough!

My point?
To those who choose not to believe in deity, it is their choice and should be respected and tolerated. We should tolerate, maybe not respect, those who make FUN of our deities. After all, if we are to tolerate the viewpoints of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hinduists, Shintoists, and so on, how can we NOT tolerate a single idiot among the flocks? Are you so easily insulted by the millions (if not billions) who believe differently from you?
It is their choice, and if God, (whomever that is to you) is angry, you should have faith enough that they will smite, harm, sentence to hell, etc. said person.

That would be my two cents. Thank you.[/b]

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Post by sixtem » Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:43 am

*claps*

Welcome to Mangaworkshop Sarenth! By what your join date says you've been here a while, maybe I just don't recognize your name.

Welcome anyway! Good show.

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Post by sixtem » Sun Feb 05, 2006 10:52 am

Last edited by sixtem on Sun Feb 05, 2006 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Freedom of Speech and Democracy (rant thread)

Post by Sarenth » Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:06 am

And the point of posting that inflammatory comic was...?

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Post by bloodyspasm » Sun Feb 05, 2006 11:48 am

I don't really think it's allright for a popular newspaper to make fun of any religion, although in belgium, cartoons mocking the pope and jezus are released în papers weekly, and they are apreciated , because we all find it a funny subject.

clearly, this certain cartoon was too insulting, and it's not a very smart statement of the government to defend it pubicly,it doesn't take a mathematical genius to figure out that it would've had these kinds of results...

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Post by Az » Sun Feb 05, 2006 1:07 pm

Six:

1) The people committing these crimes are not muslim.
2) I'm neither a fake nor a commie. I don't give a shit about your faggass labeling, these are MY standpoints.
3) I'm not ignorant. You're the one who was ignorant by trying to tell me how the world works, and I meant you should stfu about that, not your standpoints
4) TRS had a very good point, yes (though I dunno how we should teach people to be tasteful and not asshats)
5) I said I agreed with the burning the flag was going overhand. I am no extremist, and you seem to think so.
6) People died over the pic, right? Okay, so why then did they post it? Do they WANT to get people killed? As I said before; publishing those pics is like dressing in meat and going into a hungry lions cage. YOU DON'T DO THAT IN TIMES LIKE THESE, IT WILL ENDANGER MANY INNOCENT PEOPLE. IT'S NOT ONLY THE MUSLIMS GETTING INSULTED IT IS INNOCENT PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND ME LOSING THEIR LIVES FOR WHAT A DANISH CARTOONIST DREW.
7) The muslims would not retaliate if the cartoonists didn't insult them and their prophet
8 ) The interpret thing is completely right, you know. JIHAD = WAR. Not terrorism. These people are NOT MUSLIMS, get it?
9) Yeah, point of the comic? Israely-Palestine conflict? Mature

Sarenth:

1) Yes, I do have a right to tell him to stfu. Why? I do think I have a liiittle more experience with the world. I'm not saying he's lived a perfect princessy-little life with gold and diamonds, or that he hasn't ever been depressed orwrongly treated by anyone for his religion/heritage/haircolor. I'm saying I've been around more, and have experienced more, and that he should stfu about things like that.
2) The "competition to insult the Prophet" is not questionable. IT SAID SO IN THE NEWSPAPER.
3) Ok, so "letting yourself be heard" is the following: MOHAMMED WAS A TERRORIST? That's not an opinion. That's an INSULT. Do you get the difference? If I said your mother was a whore, how would you take it? Freedom of Speech? That's not freedom of speech, bro. You'd probably punch me, even if I'm a girl.
4) Anything gets the Church angry. It's just that most Christians aren't as extremely religious as the Muslims. If you look back, when the Church actually had power, they could even change the laws of Physics and behead people for being right. So don't give me that shit.

Bloody:
Thankyou, I agree. If Christians find making fun of Jesus funny it's their thing, they don't have to make fun of somebody elses Prophet because of that.

Again, so that nobody will misunderstand:
I DO NOT ENDORSE THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY THE TERRORISTS OR THE ARABS BURNING THE DANISH FLAG OR BOYCOTTING THEIR ITEMS (not only newspaper) BUT I THINK IT'S DISRESPECTFUL TO PUT AN "INSULT MOHAMMED" COMPETITION IN THE NEWSPAPERS.
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Harm

Post by Harm » Sun Feb 05, 2006 4:56 pm

I've heard about it, and thougt about it.
Talked about it with my Islamitic collegue at work and almost got punshed in the face.

Now, I know that I'm not going to make friends by sharing this oppinion with you guys. Specially not when there are Islamitic members on the board.
But before you read on please keep in mind that I have no grudge against the Islam or any other religion. Fact of the matter is that there are several religions on this earth (some coming from the same source, some completely different) and we have to live with that. In a positive manner.

So, now for my humble opinion:

I think that it's trueley shameless of the Danish government to appologise for the cartoons in the paper.
These comics are ment to offend. The whole point of the artist is to get the people who read them to think (and acting by wiping your feet on flags and burning flags is not the way the artist wants a reaction).

If you have beenfollowing the news you will have noticed that there is a whole lot going on in the middle east. I do not have the time to set the whole thing out now, but you will surely know what I'm talking about.

The goal of this comics it to get you to think what the fuck is going on there, and what we're trying to accieve there!

We are trying to turn a country thats about 500 years behind on the western culture (in terms of freedom, man-woman relations, government-religion proportions) into a fully democratic enviroment equal to the western world.
There, they rule with religion. The government is formed by the book. If you know what I mean. Here (western world) government and religion are seperated.

So what do the comics wants us to think about? Well, what the fuck are we (America in perticular!) doing there. The people in the middle east have their own ways of doing things, let them continue doing so and leave them alone. (In a respectfull manner!)
Sure it's possible to keep in business with the middle east, and help them if we can. But for Gods sake, let them choose their own path!

But that's not what Bush want's. He want's controll there in order to get the oil.


So, that's all I have to say for now. Please remind yourself of the fact that I did not mean to offend anyone in any matter (except Bush maybe ^_~) before responding.

I'd like to close with a quote of TRS, a quote I completely agree with.
TRS said
so we can talk about whatever we want .... just not about whatever you really find insulting?

Sorry, thats not freedom

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Post by Brickwallfish » Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:16 pm

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Az
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Post by Az » Sun Feb 05, 2006 8:40 pm

When did I say I was religious? I made it perfectly clear I don't count myself a muslim. You would've known that if you would have read my posts.

Secondly,my "bitching" is about whether or not it was right to publish such cartoons during times like these, and if it's Freedom of Speech or just being an asshat.

It would be great if people could just said "No, Az, I don't agree with you; publishing them was not wrong imo"
But, no, people go "NO, AZ U DUNNO NOTHING ABOUT THIS WORLD ITS 'FREEDOM OF SPEECH' I DUN CARE IF ANE1 INNOCENT DIES OR NOT I WANNA EXPRESS MY STUPID ASS GENERALIZING".
And, obviously, some of you think that Freedom of Speech is equivalent to being an asshole. Which it's not.

EDIT
Nah, I didn't hear/read anything about a fire.. I did hear about a bombthreat to the Jyllandsposten HQ. Turned out to be fake though.
Y'know, it pisses me off people play pranks during that
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